Andy Burnham

Prime Minister, I'm going to get on to your incredibly consequential speech in a moment, but before I do, you've said there is a strong indication that Iran was involved in the Fairfield plot. That is very serious indeed. Yes. Will you recall Parliament?

Will you recall parliament?

Okay. And right, okay, Prime Minister, thank you for that. Now, you said in your speech yesterday that you want to draw a line on a decade of division. Yeah. And then you announced a series of very divisive policies, changing the triple lock, potentially tearing up Britain's voting system, or pursuing reationalization, potentially reopening Brexit wars. Your politics are full of dividing lines, aren't they?

Yes, indeed. And Prime Minister, I'm going to I want to come on to a couple of those policies, but just in terms of your reform agenda for Britain, voting uh reform, the EU, social care, it all requires a general election, will you call one before 2029?

But your big reform, but your big reform program requires a general election, doesn't it?

So you you're not going to call a general election till 2029.

PM, even what you want to do, give people some breathing space. You can't deliver on that, can you? One think tank is estimating every household will be nearly 2.5,000 worse off by the end of next year. That's just the reality, isn't it? You can't deliver that.

But you can people are going to be worse off, aren't they? Before they get better.

Just to be just so but just to be for people out there cuz you've talked a lot about breathing space. Can you just be honest with them? It's going to get worse for them before it gets better, isn't it? I'm not saying it's your fault. A lot of it is beyond your control. It's going to beough. It's going to get worse.

What are you saying to people issues around bed in there and I will do what I can when I can. Is that what you're saying?

But it is going to get worse before it gets better. Just Yes. Isn't it?

PM I'm already running out of time, so I'm going to have to crack on. Um just on the policies, you've said you want to start a debate on Britain's long-term relationship with our European partners. one option you said is going all the way. Might the next election be a referendum on rejoining the EU?

What do you personally believe?

You've said in the past that you think that we will rejoin the EU in your lifetime, you're still a relatively young man. Do you would would you in your heart like to go back into I'm saying personally.

I'm not saying it becomes policy. I just want people to understand what you believe

Well if there was an option to join tomorrow on past terms would you take it?

You just said you don't want now according to polls has a majority said you don't want to return.

PM, I'm really running out of time, but just quickly uh your change to the triple lock will save the government 15 billion pounds by 2040. It still won't be enough to pay for social care. You will have to raise taxes as well, won't you?

You have to also raise taxes to do it.

and you've spoken so powerfully about it and I do want to come if I may to your dad Roy. There was a moment on stage yesterday and I was right at the front and I I saw you so closely when his name came up on the teleprompter and you just stopped. Mhm. And then the hall began to cheer you on. What was going through your mind at that time? Did you think you couldn't carry on?

Well, that was one thing I did want to ask cuz you were back out on duty just a couple of days after your dad died, which was quite incredible that you managed to get yourself up and out again. Um, and you said then that your dad would have wanted you to be back out there and you said bringing some of the changes he always pushed you to make. Social care is clearly one of those changes. What else do you think your dad would want you to do as prime minister?

You said that people can't wait forever for change in your speech on this stage. So, why in that speech did you set out a whole series of major changes an actual care service, a closer relationship with Europe, changing our voting system, none of which can happen for years?

Let's go through some of the changes starting with that big one on social care. Why hit pensioners not the wealthiest in your first big policy announcement?

I'm asking you how you pay for that because you you've set out that ambition repeatedly. What's new is you've now told us how you want to pay for it. And you're wanting to pay for it by scrapping the triple lock, by scrapping the guarantee to pensioners.

But let's put it simply, the clever people behind the scenes who brief us after speeches like your speech say, "This will save 15 billion pounds a year eventually." That's 15 billion pounds that would have been going to pensioners, which is why I ask you, "Why are you taking money from pensioners and not," as Sharon Graham of Unite the Union would say, "take it from the wealthy. Don't take it from pensioners."

You You're saying it's a deal, forgive me interrupting, but you're saying effectively it's a deal. You get something new, but we have to take something back a bit.

check what you mean by that, you see, because you've talked about a free national care service, free at the point of use. But can we be clear that is if you get care in your own home? If you go into a residential home like your dad did, for example, you'll still pay your bed and board, won't you?

might end up selling your family house to pay the bills which are what, 50 to 100,000 pounds?

very clear. You've been honest about it, as you said you would be, which is people who move into a residential home, they still face the risk of losing their home to pay those bills. Can we deal with the crisis that's facing people now, this winter? The boss of EDF, the big energy firm, has been talking to the BBC, and he says this winter we face another energy crisis. Is that how you see it as Prime Minister?

And you're going to have to look at giving people more help, because you proclaim from this stage that you were cutting VAT off electricity bills, as you've just said. Now, you'll know the numbers. That saves people around £45 off their energy bill. But, prices are going up by £60 a year tomorrow. They're due to go up, that's the forecast, another £276. So, your VAT cut's already been wiped out. Will you look at further help?

So, looking at fuel duty, for example, which

Now, if there's an energy crisis, as you've conceded, there's another crisis at the moment globally, a borrowing crisis. The global markets are demanding more to lend countries money than they have for, what, 20 years or so. But Britain has a particular problem. It costs more for the Treasury here to borrow money than it costs Greece, than it costs Italy, than it costs France. Why didn't you say something in this big speech today to try and say to the global markets, "We've got this under control. We're going to cut spending. We aren't going to borrow as much in the future."

doesn't that doesn't make our borrowing any better.

Well, you hope it'll reduce revenue spending, but the point I'm making to you is that you then plan to spend it on something else. So, not just social care, but the other thing you didn't spend long talking about. You are committed to a huge increase in defense spending and you've yet to tell us how you'll pay for it. And we still don't know the answer and there's no prospect of an answer if as soon as you make a cut to spending you say, "Oh, I've got a plan to expand government. We'll get a national care service. Let's spend it on that."

I want to ask you briefly if I could about two other big changes that you talked about from this conference stage. Brexit. Ideally, in your heart, you want us to rejoin the EU, don't you?

Mr. Burnham. That sounds like yes, but I don't want to say it.

There's another big reform you spoke about, Prime Minister, which is voting reform. You're saying that's what you want to happen, that we have European style voting in Britain.

words, you want to stop Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister.

Again and again, when you wanted to be Prime Minister, now you are Prime Minister, you talked about rolling back 40 years of of failure as you see it. Why, as Prime Minister now, do you talk more about the 1980s than about 2020s? Isn't it a backward-looking speech, rather than a speech that says, "Here are the big challenges, the energy crisis, the AI crisis, the crisis of what Russia is doing and what China is doing?"

You talked very movingly about your father, who died just a couple of weeks ago. Wouldn't he have been the first to tell you, "Don't be nostalgic, son. Look [snorts] to the future. Look to your kids' future. Don't bang on about Margaret Thatcher."

Forgive me. You You You saw a message that someone had predicted. John Swinney, is it? The First Minister of

You stood on this stage. There's the euphoria that you had. And when you came to the moment you were going to speak about your dad, you had to stop, didn't you? And people got to their feet to give you space to compose yourself. Does it just feel like you're on a an emotional roller coaster all the time?

Prime Minister, welcome in your childhood stomping ground of Liverpool. Um in July, as we heard just there, you told us you would go as fast as you can on sorting out care for the elderly and vulnerable in England, social care as it's known. Where have you got to now, 3 months later?

If people weren't aware, your father, Roy, passed away actually less than 2 weeks ago. I think it's a fortnight tomorrow. So, this is obviously hugely personal for you, as it is personal for so many families who'll be watching this morning. What will a new system mean? What will you offer people? By when will it happen? So, let's start with what you're actually going to do.

And those are the problems right now as you see it, but what are you to be really clear, are you proposing a universal service, universal free care for people? Let's be really specific here. Do you mean free personal care for everyone who needs it in England?

So, free at the point of use and universal?

One of the reasons though why politicians have looked at this and then backed off is the cost. So, you've set out very clearly here you want there to be a system for everyone in England that is free at the point of use cuz you've committed to the same principles as the NHS. If you look at that what that might cost, some estimates say 18 billion pounds a year, that's Health Foundation figures. Some people estimate even more than that.

are we talking about then?

So, where will it do it from? Because where will it come from?

So, let's then be You say you want to be honest, you want to look people in the eye. You can look the country in the eye right now and say you want care in England to be like the NHS. Everyone pays for the NHS. It comes out of general taxation. So, is that how this is going to work? Everyone will contribute if everyone's covered? Because that means more tax.

Prime Minister, you know where you're going with this. You've been thinking about this for years.

spread the cost across the population. That then sounds different to what you just mentioned, what you as Health Secretary mentioned all the way back at suggested back in 2009. Your proposal then, was to bring in a better system of social care paid for by among other ways, paid for by a levy on people's estates, the money they wanted to leave behind for their children. As you said, it was branded a dementia tax. Is that off the table?

If it's urgent, do you commit to doing this before 2029, before the next general election?

just to be clear for people that commitments in the manifesto are not raising VAT, not raising income tax, and not raising national insurance that employees pay. But there could be a different kind of tax. There could be a hypothecated tax to use the the fancy word. Just to stick on timing cuz that's the question I'm asking here, really.

So, to be really clear, you've just set this out there. You are going to put to the country at the next general election a proposition for a care service that will be free at the point of use, paid for by everyone, and that will be on the ballot paper next time round.

But some people watching and your political critics and also a growing number of economists would say that the country is in the position it is because politicians have been too free with public money. They've not taken the economy seriously enough. They've not taken growing the economy seriously enough. And I just would would Let me Let me Let Let me ask this question because since you've been in power, you have outlined and talked about social care, but you've put more money more spending on housing. You want more money for rough sleeping, more money on cheaper bus fares. You've taken some money off energy bills. The problem comes on the other side of the ledger. Now, you've saved some money by canceling the digital ID project. That was 1 and 1/2 billion pounds, but money that actually hadn't been allocated in in the first place. What is it are you willing to ditch in order to make the sums add up? Because one of your critics, you know, said that you're like Father Christmas. You can't just be Santa Burnham. The economy is in quite a precarious state. The debt is 98% of the whole economy.

And there is concern in your party, too, that you're quite motivated and happy maybe to spend taxpayers' cash on things that you understandably care about, things that your party cares about. But the former business secretary Peter Kyle told us this weekend, you have to care as much about growing the economy as you do about rough sleeping or trying to give people a little bit of help.

now and you know very well that there are many economists who look at the state of the UK and think this cannot go on in this way. So, where are you prepared to cut back

No, no one is No one's asking for a gold medal. Oil is once again at 100 pounds a barrel. There are predictions that energy bills will hit five 500 pounds extra from January onwards. Yes, as Keir Starmer sat in that chair and did the same thing saying that yes, there were some good signs of growth. The point is there is real concern in the financial markets about the health of the British economy.

So, can you tell us today somewhere where you're willing to cut or something that you're willing to ditch in order to balance the books?

One of the things though that people particularly in the business community but probably lots of people watching will look at and say is just, you know, might want to throw their hands up in exasperation. Again, building another runway at Heathrow seems to have been delayed. Rachel Reeves used to say that would bring billions of extra pounds to the economy. Are you going to back another runway Heathrow? There has to be a vote in Parliament.

Are you going to back it?

a vote in Parliament and you're the Prime Minister. Are you going to back it or not?

That sounds like you're not up for it cuz the London Mayor said he can't isn't that up for it.

Will the welfare bill have gone down by the next general election?

commit to doing it?

They describe themselves as patriots. Are they?

Well, your home your home secretary said he was. She said he was an outright racist.

There are though, as you've said, people who are very worried about what's happening in their own communities. What do you say to the women of Paddington or villagers in Linton-on-Ouse in North Yorkshire who are really worried about these small communities being asked to live side by side with more than a thousand young men, asylum seekers, coming to live in their communities?

pay the price for successive governments' failures? I mean, isn't there another solution? Your predecessor actually at one point was looking at trying to send people who'd come here without permission to other countries, to Albania. Now, that didn't work out. But are you prepared to look at something more radical?

But overall, the figure for this year is still higher than it was in 2024. So, yes, you're right, the number of summer crossings is lower than it has been for some time, but the overall figure this year is still happening. A couple of undocumented boats slipped through this week.

People might be able to hear this in protest going on outside. We're not sure what people are protesting about. It's quite a normal thing to happen at a party conference, but just if you can hear that in the background, then that is what is going on. I just lastly want to ask you about what's happening in Northern Ireland this morning. There's been real tension this morning between two communities, um the Drumcree, which of course years ago was the scene of some of the most serious disorder in Northern Ireland. Um the government could have overturned the decision here and said that the parade shouldn't be allowed to go ahead. What is your view of what's going on? Are you concerned about it?

A huge amount on your plate, and we're grateful for your time this morning. I just must ask you this. This is a huge week for you, huge moment. Someone in government said, "He just loves being Prime Minister." Is that true? You're loving it?