BBC News interview with Henry Zeffman: the decision to step down

It's a very sweet memory. It was an incredible occasion. It was the first Labour government for 14 years. Um I was the Prime Minister. Um only three Labour Prime Ministers have ever won a majority and we'd just won a majority.

And so it was a joyous occasion. It was fantastic. The street was covered with so many people who'd worked with me on the campaign. And uh Vic was there obviously with me. Um and we had brought our children in round the back.

Um we have obviously never named them, never let them um be photographed, but they were hidden in in the crowd there. So it was a really fantastic um occasion and um a very proud moment because to become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom um is a huge privilege and so it was a very very special uh day.

I think it's absolutely core and you can't sort of see the last 2 years if you don't take into consideration the last 6 years because um I took over the Labour Party uh just after we'd lost the 2019 election. Um that was the worst defeat for a Labour Party since 1935. And we were politically, financially, and morally bankrupt. Um We had the stain of anti-Semitism. And we weren't trusted by the public on the economy, on defense and security, and on immigration.

And most people at that point said, "The Labour Party's finished. It'll never win again. That political parties have a lifespan, and the Labour Party had come to the end of its lifespan." I never accepted that. I stepped up in April 2020, but the first task uh was to uh clean up and fix my party, uh to tear out antisemitism, uh to turn and make it face the country, uh to take the hands and the grip of my predecessors of every lever in the Labour Party. This was hard and bloody work um to uh change our party, to make the party face the electorate, uh and face the country.

And even then people said, uh "Well, you seem to be changing the Labour Party, but it's not possible for Labour to win an election within 5 years of such a bad defeat." Um but we did it. Um we fought hard, and we went from the lowest of low bases to a general election victory in 2024. And I say, you know, Labour doesn't win uh that often, often enough, and we've only ever won three majorities. Um and we won a majority in 2024, and therefore 1945, 1997, and 2024 go down as three of the most successful elections in the history of the Labour Party.

Well, the test of that, I think, has to be um is the country in a better state now than it was uh when I inherited it 2 years ago.

Oh, if you look across the um big-ticket items that really matter, um the economy was broken when we came in. It was the aftermath of Liz Truss. Um and we have turned that around and stabilize the economy to a point now where we're at the fastest growing economy in the G7, uh where we've been able to stabilize even during a period of conflict in the Iran war, we're a leader on AI, etc. If you look at our public services, in particular, um the NHS, uh they were on their knees when we came in 2 years ago. Now we've picked them up, invested in our public services, and in recent weeks we've seen the biggest fall in NHS waiting lists um in 17 years.

If you look at issues like child poverty, um where um in 2 years we've taken the steps that will leave will lift half a million children out of poverty and have a lasting impact on their lives. If you look at defense and security, where we've had two big uplifts in defense spending, but we've done more than that. We are now leading coalitions in Ukraine, it's France, Germany, and the United Kingdom leading there. In the Strait of Hormuz, it's France and the United Kingdom, um strategic decisions with other countries. And then if you look at our international reputation, um which frankly was in tatters 2 years ago, um we are in such a better position now as a trusted partner, not just across the EU, but much more widely, where once again people are looking to the United Kingdom for leadership.

If you if you if you aren't you know, to answer that question, are we in a better position? Then yes, we are. And and that's right, and I'm proud of that. It is right that I do.

No, the way I've analyzed that, um and look, it's not a decision I wanted to make. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I didn't want to be in this position. Um but the way I've looked at it is this. Um the question being asked now is not who was the best person to save the Labour Party and turn it around.

I've answered that question pretty comprehensively. It's not who's the best person to lead us to a landslide Labour victory. I've answered that question pretty comprehensively. The question my colleagues in the parliamentary party are asking now is um am I the right person to take us into the next election? Um and they've answered that question.

Look, they've answered that question and I accept that answer and I accept it in good grace. And this is really important to me because I really care that there's a Labour government. I really care that a Labour government succeeds because I want our country to succeed. And therefore uh yes, that's the answer they've given. Um I accept that in good grace.

And what I want to do now is to make sure that whatever comes next is a success. Um and so I'm doing everything I can in the remaining time I've got to make sure that there's an orderly transition. Um that um everything um is there to ensure there's a stronger foundation as can possibly be for my successor so that uh what we've achieved so far can be built on. And I believe it can because uh the next Prime Minister uh will inherit a stable economy, good public services or improving public services, a big majority

He hear me out. Um and uh therefore my successor will have a platform to build on. Which means that uh Labour can go can go on and should go on to win the next uh election. And uh that's what I'm trying to make sure I'm able to do over the next uh few days um to serve my country and to make sure that I bow out. It's the end of my journey um in politics.

I'm very clear about that. I've said to all my colleagues it's not the end of their journey. Um and it's very important that we all do what we can to make sure what comes next is a success and that's what I will do.

Well, I don't think a new Prime Minister will because um and there's often this discussion um you know, what's the right balance between dealing with international affairs and dealing with domestic affairs. They're one in the same thing. Um and it is in the best interest of our country uh to be able to lead on the international stage. Just give you two or three examples of that. Um the biggest impact on the cost of living, therefore on the household um income and living standards of everybody in the country, the biggest impact in the last few years has been on the one hand the Ukraine uh conflict, on the other the Iran uh Iran conflict that's going on at the moment and the Strait of Hormuz.

And therefore, if you're Prime Minister and you care um what bills are going to be like in any household around the country, you have to care about finding a lasting solution to the situation in Ukraine. You have to care about what happens in the Strait of Hormuz and that's why I am proud that um when other countries have looked to um the sort of group of countries that's needed to work on these, they've looked to the UK and to France and Germany for the work on Ukraine in particular, the coalition of the willing and they've looked again to France and the UK when it comes to the work that needs to be done on reassurance in the Strait of Hormuz. And that is I am proud of the fact that the UK is now regarded as a leader, a country that others look to and want to engage with and that is in our best interests here at home. You can't It is It is It's not sensible to think you can just separate these two things out.

No, I don't think it is possible and I've given you the example of Ukraine and the straight up for moves. I can give you plenty of other examples. The deal we did with the US that safeguarded all the jobs at JLR up in the Midlands.

Before we did that deal, I went to see the workforce and looked them in the eyes. They were really worried because of the threatened tariffs that they were going to lose their jobs and I went back to them immediately we did the deal with President Trump and they were so relieved because they knew for them, their families, their communities it was a massive deal. So, this suggestion you can really in the modern era simply split up international domestic is just it just doesn't make sense. It isn't true. It isn't right.

No, it's obviously you need a strong team around you. You need a good cabinet team. You need a good strong team here in number 10. So, there's a lot of support that goes in. But in the end, I think particularly for the Prime Minister, working very closely with the Chancellor that is where sort of key decisions have to be made, priorities have to be decided and you know, trade-offs have to be taken.

There is

Yeah, look, whoever's my successor is going to face the same global conflict we're in the yeah, we keep saying and it's true we're in a more dangerous and volatile world than we've been in for probably most of my lifetime. That's not just a phrase, that's reality. That's not going to change. And the domestic challenges aren't going to change and as Prime Minister you have to take very many decisions every single day and none of them are easy. But everybody understands that that's the role of the prime minister.

Um, and you know, it is a really, you know, important role sitting alongside the great privilege of actually being the prime minister of the United Kingdom.

Well, look, I think this was a Christmas speech to I think it was the journalist or something.

It's intended to be very light-hearted, etc. But let me give you another side of my relationship with Andy, which I think is really important cuz we've been working together for years. When I first came here, I came into politics, as you know, late in life, and we'd just lost another election. And the first person I wanted to work for and did work for was Andy Burnham, and we worked together in the shadow home office team for a little while, and then since he'd been mayor, we've been working very closely together on some really important projects like Northern powerhouse rail, but also, you know, in the aftermath of the awful attack on the synagogue up in Manchester. I was on the phone to Andy straight away.

It was one of the first calls I made, went straight to Manchester, and he and I then worked intensely closely together in the aftermath of that awful attack.

Yes, I do. We've always got on. He supports the wrong football club, but but you know, but the ability you know, we get on, I've never had any personal animosity, and I wish he, if he is my successor, obviously there's a little bit of process to go, but I want what comes next to succeed, and I'm going to do everything I possibly can to make sure it does succeed, and I'm going to support the, um, government, and what I mean by support is that, um, any advice, um, I give will be only given if asked for. It'll be given behind the scenes, and I won't be, um, on camera or on the radio uh, giving my version of what the Prime Minister should be doing, because that's my interpretation of supporting uh, a Labour government.

No, it's not lonely, because you're surrounded by teams the whole time, but sometimes you do need space to just, uh, sit alone, go through difficult decisions, um, and just slightly step outside, um, the inevitable noise and hustle that is, um, always in Number 10. So, whether it's here in the study, or whether it's actually our flat, which is just over there, um, I do have these places where I can go and sort of just get a bit of space. Um, in the flat here, where we're I'm with Vic and the kids, um, I never have work meetings in the flat. So, we've got a strict rule, once you go through the front door, I'm Dad, not Prime Minister. Um, and it's our space.

So, creating those spaces have been important to me.

Look, it's been really hard for them. Um, they've been amazing. Um, Vic, my wife, has been by my side, um, every single step of the way, um, through some many, many happy and joyous occasions, like walking up the street uh, the day after we won the general election, but she's been by my side every single day when it's been tough, um, in the same way. Um, and of course, for our children, um, we've just taken the decision to protect them, so we never name them. We never have, um, photographs taken of them.

That is unusual for them. You know, they're teenagers moving into Downing Street. Uh, my little girl was, uh, 12, 13, and, uh, my boy was, um, yeah, 17. Um, and, uh, no, it wasn't 17, it was 15, sorry, going on 16, um, 2 years ago. And to come and live in this environment was very odd uh, for them, and, uh, they've been amazing.

Um, but I've there's things I've not been able to do with them because if there's cameras there, um, then I tend not to do it with them, and therefore they've been deprived of doing some things with me that they might have otherwise been able to do, but they've been fantastic.

Well, it was tough. I'm not going to pretend otherwise, really, really tough. As I grappled with what was the best thing to do for me, for the country, for the government. And those discussions inevitably start with many discussions with colleagues, with parliamentary colleagues, with the team here, with my immediate advisers, um, with trade unions, so many people in that discussion. But for me, and this may be different for other people, in the end it became an intensely personal decision.

Um, and that's why it was a decision taken ultimately, um, when Vic and I were away with the kids, we went to Chequers, and just spent 2 days together as a family. And that's when I came to my final decision, and um, it wasn't that I didn't want other advice at that stage. I'd had plenty of conversations, but um, when you are taking the decision to step down from the role as Prime Minister, taking the decision that your political career is over, it is an intensely personal matter, or at least it was for me. And I wanted to do that with Vic, and that's what I did.

Well, the way I see it is this. Uh, I didn't come into politics in order to be Prime Minister. I came in because I wanted to be part of something which changed millions of lives for the better. Um, I stepped up as leader of the Labour Party uh, after the 2009 election. And so, the way I'd put it is the Labour Party arguably could have been lost.

Um, but I stepped up as leader and with others, we saved the Labour Party. Um, we returned it as an electoral force, uh, won a general election, and then in 2 years have started the important work of change, and left the country in a materially better state than it was 2 years ago. So, yes, look, uh, in answer directly to your question, um, did I want it to end at this point in this way? No, I didn't. But I accept that with good grace.

As I look back, am I proud of the fact that I picked the Labour Party up, turned it around, turned it back into electoral force, um, got rid of anti-Semitism in our party, ensured our party was trusted again on the economy, um, and on defense, and on immigration, and won not just a general election, but a landslide general election, and putting a shift at 2 years uh, that has seen our economy stabilize, our public services improve, and our international standing in a completely different place. When I look When I look back on that, I'm proud of what I've done, and I shall exit now having done that. I shan't, as I say, give unwanted advice to my successor. I shall simply make sure that I do everything I can to make sure what comes next is a success and support all of my colleagues in that. I want the government to succeed.

I want all my parliamentary colleagues to succeed, and I've told them that and I mean it.

I'm going to stay as an MP.

Yes.

I don't know. Is the honest answer that. The decision I've taken is that I should focus 100% on serving my country as Prime Minister until the day I leave. And then I can take time to think about what might come next, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. It's a big job.

It's really important, and my way of dealing with these things is to say I will focus on what I what the job in hand is, and that job in hand for me is serving my country, which is an incredible privilege, making sure that what comes next is a success, going with good grace, and then having gone, keeping my mouth shut rather than giving constant advice to my successor about what they should be doing.

Well, I really hope so. I mean, we've got a great squad, and of course last time we won was under a Labour government, so that bodes well. I don't want to, um, you know, do anything to disturb what might happen. I mean, I'm a massive England Arsenal fan and England fan. I have watched England, I don't know how many times.

I've watched them uh, back in '21 in the Euro finals in Wembley. Uh, and of course we we lost on penalties. Um, but I think it was good scored, resilient scored. Really tough game coming up against Mexico. But yes, we can win it and I really hope we do.