BBC News interview: the £5m gift and Reform's money

Well, I was in a really peculiar situation where, you know, the standards committee were investigating me. You could ask me questions about it. I'm not allowed to answer under the rules. I heard someone, Lucy Pal say, it could take up for up to a year for there to be a decision on this. And so, I'm being judged guilty every single day by the media, by everybody.

I'm guilty. Well, not just of that, of almost everything. And so I said, you know what? Whilst Westminster obsesses about money, about security, about whether this was political or personal, and it goes on every day. Do you know what we'll do?

We'll ask the people. I will let the people of Clton, the voters, be the judge.

Well, I mean that investigation the outcome. Have you seen us on the committee? I think we know the outcome already.

I'm not I'm not going to say any more than that, but if you

look at the composition. If you look at the political composition of the committee, uh I thought before they gave a judgment, we'd ask the people to give a judgment. And look, a lot has changed since I called that bi-election. A lot has changed. you know, the horrible murder of Anne Whitikham, the quite rightly increased security around politics and politicians in this country.

I think at least I shall say this when I meet them, give the answers that are needed.

I wasn't prepared to wait for up to a year for that committee with its political background makeup to come to their decision.

I have no questions about him.

But I do think, you know, and and probably Boris Johnson might say the same. I do think that to be judged by members of parliament of other political parties who you're fighting against in bi-elections or general elections. I I think that raises the question. I I really do. And I think if we're going to have I mean looking ahead, we're going to have standards.

I mean surely we need to have people who are actually apolitical making those decisions. That's what I would suggest. Look, it is what it is. But I wasn't prepared to wait a year or what, however long it was going to take with literally the media judging me every day. And it's interesting since the Clton bi-election with an increased number of votes, which in the middle of August wasn't a bad thing to do, many of those questions have gone away.

No.

No. And I've said that and that will happen.

That will happen.

That will happen. I mean, I was actually written to by him within three hours of the result in Clton. So, so with offering a date or saying he's up and running. Well, you know, maybe now, but maybe now this thing will actually move a bit faster.

It won't be too long.

Well, I mean, I think the fact that we're not offering any peeres, you know, I mean, just have a look at the last 30 years of British politics. You give money, you get a peer. Can I promise you something? All the big donors that have given money to reform, not a single one of them will go to the House of Lords. Not one.

I promise you these people, successful entrepreneurs in their own right, are giving money to reform because they share the same analysis as ours, which is Britain is broken. You cannot trust the people that broke it to put it back together again. And we need fresh thinking, new people, a much more radical politics. and a politics that doesn't just make promises to get elected, but makes promises that it genuinely intends to deliver on. And so, as I say, you know, our sources of money come from successful people who really care about the country.

Well, I could have done, but I didn't need to. And I took strong legal advice on it. This was purely personal. It was given no strings attached. It was unconditional, but the intention was very clear that I am someone who the state, despite being asked repeatedly to help, just refuses to do so.

And I'm going to need a degree of security for as long as I live. It's just as simple as that. It wasn't a political donation. It wasn't used to fight a campaign or anything like that. So I think my judgment was right and you know if they find me guilty they find me guilty of not filling in a piece of paper I guess.

And by the way I haven't broken a law haven't broken tax laws haven't taken a penny of public money. Do you know my personal expenses in the first two years of being an MP is zero zero there's no public money involved. You know I I am utterly convinced I have done nothing wrong.

Not really. No. No. I mean going I mean just remember I've had a career as a journalist as well. You know, I've done LBC shows for years.

I've done GB news shows for years. I've written for newspapers, you know,

Well, I wasn't in doubt. I wasn't in doubt on good legal advice. That's the point.

Well, the investigation is not legal. The invest This is not a legal investigation.

I don't know of any other MP that's faced the threats that I've faced over the course of the last decade and more and will do for many years to come.

Well, look, I firmly believe I have broken no rules, done nothing wrong. This is a matter of interpretation, I guess, for the standards committee. We'll let them decide.

I'm not going to speculate on that. I'm just not.

I wouldn't have thought so, but I'm not going to speculate.

What we've had since May the 8th and May the 8th is significant because on May the 7th we wiped out the tries in East Anglia. We took down the Labour party in the Midlands of the North. We got rid of K Starmmer. I knew on May the 8th Starmmer couldn't survive ever since that moment. I mean we've been under assault in the most extraordinary way.

You know questions about Richard Ty individual bank transactions of Richard Ty being published in newspapers. Astonishing. Astonishing.

well the fact that illegally obtained information is published all over Sunday newspapers is astonishing. So

So So does that mean his bank account should be exposed to the whole world. His bank transactions should be exposed to the whole world.

what I'm saying is this. There's been a willful attempt and it's gone on now for months to say that everything to do with reform that every individual involved with reform is somehow a crook. That's been the attempt that's been made.

I I honestly don't think so. They've questioned who our donors are. They've questioned, you know, individuals within the organization. Uh, you know, we have not been found to be in breach of anything, but it's gone on for week after week after week. And so, when that happens, it's not surprising that more in common will find some people in Clton asking questions.

Is that all? Surely there's more than this.

I believe it was her money. I wasn't leader at the time. I wasn't involved in the transactions, but I absolutely believe her when she says it was her money. And by the way, these investigations,

How can anybody ever know anything?

I have been told it's her money. So, do I know? Yes, I believe I know as much as I possibly can. The point is we live in a complainant society. If you complain about me, automatically that triggers an investigation.

So, we're under investigation every day for virtually everything we do because the other political parties are constantly writing to all the authorities. There's a big picture here. The old two-party system that has dominated, frankly, since the end of the First World War feels for the first time it faces an existential threat. And think about what goes with that. It isn't just being an MP.

It isn't just being in government. It's who goes to the House of Lords, who heads up the Quangos, who gets the government contracts. You know, there is a whole ecosystem with a century of development around this. and we come along from virtually nowhere and threaten the whole thing. So I think what you're seeing is the establishment in a very coordinated way fighting back.

But you know something, it isn't going to work.

Well, when you read in a newspaper, you're under scrut. When you read in a newspaper, you're under investigation and you don't even know a complaint's been made, you can see the degree of collusion that has gone on between interested parties. Look, this is the way humanity works. If you've got a new idea in business, in science, in politics, all through the centuries, the establishment that exists will attack you. And that's what's been happening since those dramatic results we had on May the 7th.

Am I surprised by it? Not particularly.

No. And it'll keep coming. This won't stop. Every single thing we do will be questioned in all sorts of ways. This will not stop.

They will continually try and do this to us.

I'm talking about normal human behavior. People who people who hold positions of power, influence, and money don't want new kids on the block succeeding.

it's the whole ecosystem. It's the whole ecosystem.

the House of Commons, the House of Lords,

People who get appointed to all sorts of wonderful positions in the public sector. This is the way that it works. And by the way, very similar things happened to Trump in America. They went after him for year after year after year. And we've sat and talked about this.

you know, going back two years, we expected there to be these sort of attacks.

I haven't actually discussed this with him, right? But I can see the similarities because again, he was an outsider. He wasn't part of the system. So, look, we've had to weather this for the last few months. I have little doubt that the attacks won't stop.

But I am utterly confident asking your question that in terms of the growth, the professionalization of this organization, our compliance checks, all of those things, I think we're in a strong place. I genuinely do.

It's very common. About the fifth time it's happened to us. Happened to us all the time. Happened to us in UKIP. Happened to us in the Brexit party.

Um I was debanked personally. uh refused by refused by 10 banks to even give me an account.

Why was I debunkked?

because complaints get made. We're living in a complainant society. you know, if I contact your bank and you've had a big transaction go into your account. I I think Chris is moneyaundering, you know, they will suspend your account pending an investigation. That's the world we live in.

Well, on money for example, on money, for example, you know, a series of European Union directives on money laundering have literally clogged up much of our banking system and there are still 300,000 people a year being debanked in this country. Why? Because an unusual transaction appears in their accounts and everyone's terribly fearful uh that, you know, they're going to be investigated as a bank. So they then report every unusual transaction to the National Crime Agency. Uh accounts get frozen, bank accounts get closed.

We've literally we are clogging ourselves up. Uh and it's and it's a terrible terrible mistake.

It's too early to tell, isn't it? I mean, if there is a burn and bounce, tell you what, it's not very big. It's not very big.

He is different to Kia Starmmer. Um Star was, I don't know, just a bit robotic perhaps sometimes in terms of his delivery. Um Bernham is appears to be more personable, but his analysis of what's wrong with the country is completely completely looking in the wrong place. uh the idea you know four decades of neoliberalism and he's blaming the labor governments too over that period and there's a confusion here because ever since Makerfield which he won well ever since Makerfield he's come up with this 40 years of failure we need radical change we need more government intervention etc and you think wow this is the most radical prime minister since that and then John Healey who's the chancellor says this is a Labor government of continuity with a different leader Well, which is it? And I don't know.

I'm not quite sure Andy Bernham knows. And and and and you know, I predicted back in September 24 a spring 27 general election forced on the government by the credit markets and I still very very strongly hold to that.

I mean Gorton Denton was never winnable and Makerfield was a seat we done very well in in the local elections. But look just as we said vote reform gets star out, it was vote burden get Star out, you know. So we were slightly hoisted with our own patard. If you look at the weekly bi-election results and every Thursday there are half a dozen bi-elections that take place, you will see our percentage average vote share is very very consistent. Uh we're doing well.

I've got huge plans for the autumn big autumn campaign that we're going to fight. Uh are we down a bit from last year? Yes. But you know, markets don't move in straight lines. Uh and I do genuinely think that the level of professionalization of training that is going on in the part is putting us in good in a good place.

No, no, there's more to do. There is a lot more to do. And I get that. I mean, this time last year, it was just myself and Richard as deputy. You know, I've now appointed four frontline shadow cabinet positions.

I've got leaders in Scotland, leaders in Wales. It's not quite yet the finished object. I'll be the first to admit that. But we are making very rapid progress. you know, finding the right people to come in.

You know, just being an MP is not necessarily the qualification for taking on a big cabinet position. So, we are looking outside of the political sphere to try to find the right people. But you know what's really interesting and and we've put out loads of policies over the course of the last month and the Conservatives put out loads of policies and Andy Bernham has put out an infinite number of ideas and policies since he became the prime minister. I don't think the public are interested. I think what they want to know is who is actually going to deliver, who is actually going to do something.

And what I'm going to say at our conference is the Tories had 14 years and went back on nearly all of their promises. Andy Bernham says he needs 10 years to turn the country around. If we win the general election, we will in the first 100 days put in place some fundamental changes to the direction of this country and if the cabinet ministers that I appoint to do those jobs don't deliver, they will be zacked.

If we're specific, if we are absolutely specific in a manifesto and get a mandate for that and get a mandate for that, then I think the truth is that the civil service in the House of Lords have to say, "Look, we're a democratic society." I think the problem is that governments get elected being slightly vague about what they want to do and then they put it to civil servants who say, "Well, it's all very complicated. It's all very difficult. We we are going to be absolutely explicit." And this conference begins that process. Direct accountability. We will deliver these things in a 100 days or those ministers will lose their jobs.

They won't get promoted upwards. They'll be chucked onto the backbenches. Dead simple.

It's very happy and those that feed newspaper stories that it's not are not in the inner circle or at the heart of this party and you know

there is oh I allow people freedom absolutely I don't tell Richard Ty what to do or or Robert Generick what to do I let them get on with the with with with the appointments they've got but in terms of the internal structures of the party, be it the Treasury Department, be it the marketing department, be it at the fundraising department, be it all those things. It's very tight. It's very united. I have absolutely no question about any of that. And and and I think we're in good shape.

Well, I do take that point and I have been agrieved over the summer. I'm very agrieved and that's not because of political reasons. That's because of that's because of my family and the extent to which my family and I'm not going to say a lot. Uh but various members of my family have beenounded. Uh oh, debanked.

Another huge bout of debanking of my family has gone on. Uh threats to the personal security of my family and in some cases that the media treating those very close to me in a way that I don't think is acceptable. Have I been pretty ratty over that and upset over that? I would accept. Hands up.

I might not have quite been my normal self over the last few months, but you know, when it's your own family, it's close to home. Listen, I've been around forever in this game. You know that I'm big enough. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take the rough and tumble in the game. I've generally, you know, gone through politics with a smile, whatever's happened.

But some of those personal things over the last few months have have weighed very heavily.

I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll go back to doing what I've been doing for the last 34 years.

Then you look look, I've been very very upset. There are stories that I can't talk to you about which will emerge in the next few weeks and months. And I think when you and others see them, they might begin to understand why I've been so upset.

No. But that remains something that well clearly is under investigation. That is currently under investigation by counterterrorism. And I at this stage would decline to comment other than to say that the world is becoming a much more dangerous place in not just politics but public life as a whole. I think is becoming a much more dangerous and difficult place.

Um and you know we have I think we normally place enormous trust on our police and our intelligence services just occasionally there are questions.

Uh we have had a much more open reception from the authorities than we have before. I think there's a feeling that Richard Ty has articulated that perhaps in the past we weren't treated as seriously as perhaps we should have been. I think there is a big change and that's very welcome.

No.

yes it's my responsibility I will be there I will have to carry the can whichever way it goes our message is very very simple uh we are people of serious intent uh be from outside the political system or those that served as cabinet ministers and resigned their positions. Uh and they're taking a huge risk too because this is what we're saying. We are saying we have had government after government elected for the sake of being elected. We are in this with completely different motives. We're in this to turn the country around.

Britain is broken. It's in serious decline. A majority of people know it. And if you vote for us, we will deliver.

Every chance. Yes.